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Fedora 12 KDE spin not to be kde3-less after all
Looks like we'll not be able to ship a Fedora 12 KDE live spin free of a kde3 runtime after all.

The reality is that the kde4 ports of both k3b and koffice aren't quite ready, and not recommended for use by either upstream. So, our plan is to revert to the tried-n-true k3b-1.0.x and koffice-1.6.x (as in Fedora 11).

Don't fret however, we'll continue to provide unofficial kde4 builds of k3b and koffice in the kde-redhat/unstable repos. Testing and feedback will continue, and with good confidence, we'll be able to include both of these in Fedora 13.
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It's a hassle, Rex, but for KOffice having both kde3 and kde4 version is much appreciated!

Fedora changed?

What happened to "ship it now, fix it later" ??

Re: Fedora changed?

It was never quite that. It has always been ship it is usable even if it has some rough edges. Never been "ship whatever"

Re: Fedora changed?

Yeah, like KDE 4.0 etc.

Re: Fedora changed?

IMO KDE 4.0.3 was usable not perfect as 4.3 is but usable :)

Re: Fedora changed?

If KDE upstream developers didn't consider KDE 4.0.3 worth shipping, they should have indicated that in their announcement. They can't blame downstream distributions for that.

If only all distros could pay as much attention to upstream on whats default-worthy. :)

Re: if only

Totally agreed. Better remove old applications only quite some time after people had the chance to switch and adapt to newer versions than forcing everyone into a suboptimal change.

Uh, this proposed change doesn't really have the buy-in of all of KDE SIG and hasn't been implemented yet. As I wrote in my e-mails, I in particular strongly oppose these reversions, considering:
* K3b 1.66 alpha2 is reported to be fairly stable and also shipped as the only version of K3b in Kubuntu Karmic Koala which will be released at about the same time as F12. One of Fedora's goals is being "First", why would we want to lag behind our competition? There are some crashes in ripping (which isn't K3b's primary functionality, burning is) and I'm going to look at those ASAP, I think it's quite likely we can get those fixed before the F12 release.
* KOffice 2.1 is already at beta 2, that's not that far from release and we've shipped betas of other stuff (including Amarok 2.0) in the past and other maintainers have, too (Firefox 3.5 anyone?), I don't see why we can't do that for KOffice 2.1. Even RHEL shipped a beta of Firefox in one of the update releases. We're explicitly not shipping KOffice 2.0.x at the KOffice team's request, that's how we ended up with a beta in the first place (and I'd agree the 2.1 beta is certainly better than 2.0 at this point).
* Reverting these applications to KDE 3 versions implies including kdelibs3 and qt3 on the live CD again, blowing up its size again and forcing us to remove useful applications.
* It's quite late in F12's cycle to make such a decision, the F12 Alpha (what was formerly "Beta") shipped with the KDE 4 version, there's only F12 Beta (formerly known as "Preview") left before the release, changing the contents of the live CD significantly now is going to invalidate all our testing. I think at this point shipping the prereleases which have been tested by Rawhide users over all this time is much safer.
* We'd inflate Epoch yet again. (No, we don't and won't use the Ubuntu-style "2.0.98-1.fc12.really1.6.3" versioning hack.)
* Backpedaling is going to leave users unhappy. People have seen the F12 Alpha and expect the new stuff to be actually in F12. Saying "we reverted everything, F12 is basically the same as F11 as far as KDE is concerned" is going to send entirely the wrong message. People who think the KDE 4 ports of K3b and KOffice aren't ready yet can skip F12 and go from F11 to F13.

Update: We held a vote on this in our IRC meeting yesterday and the decision was to revert to the KDE 3 versions. This has been implemented in Rawhide now. The KDE 4 versions will be provided in the kde-redhat unstable repository as is already the case for Fedora 10 and 11 now. I am sorry if this decision disappoints you, I'm personally not happy about it either, but we are all striving to make Fedora as good as we can and most KDE SIG members believe that shipping the tried and true stable version is the better approach there. You can still get the latest and greatest from kde-redhat unstable.

Well, those are not the only kde4 apps not usable. Kaudiocreator is still missing and kopete lacks webcam support. Koffice is still pretty crash prone. I haven't had time to test the kde4 version of k3b, though.

We aren't shipping the KDE 4 KAudioCreator from extragear SVN, it's very broken indeed. But you can use K3b for ripping (and I might have a fix for the crash with external encoding programs in the KDE 4 K3b already, just waiting for testing).

As for Kopete, what protocol is it lacking webcam support for? And was it there in previous versions? Kopete does support webcams in principle, in fact it even supports libv4l now (i.e. userspace image decoding, to support current kernel drivers which refuse to do things like JPEG decompression inside the kernel, and rightfully so), but not all protocols in Kopete have video chatting support.

Thanks Kevin for giving me hope for kde3-less spin! :)

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